Interview with sociologist, Brandon Mack

I’ve been lucky enough to interview Brandon Mack, a Sociologist from Texas A&M University. Brandon’s research centres on the intersection of race and sexuality, and therefore positions him firmly within the debates and issues I focus on here with this blog. I was stocked when he said he was happy to be interviewed, and found his responses to be insightful and direct. And he sounds like a much more calm and rational character than me! I hope everyone enjoys reading this 🙂

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What were your reasons for studying sociology, and the reasons for focusing as you have on sexuality, gender, and race?

I actually fell into sociology by accident. I took an Introduction to Sociology class my freshman year of my undergraduate years. My professor, Dr. Martin, inspired me because he had such a great love of the subject and he illustrated just how important sociology is to understanding our society and how social constructs and concepts of identity impact our relationships with each other and our own understanding of ourselves.

I decided to focus on sexuality, gender, and race because of my own personal relationship with these three concepts. As a black gay man I have experienced the intersections of these three social constructs on how I view myself and also how others view me. Also, I have seen within our society that the intersections of these three constructs have impacted relationships within the gay community and also within society at large. For some people, there is a belief that these three concepts do not interact with each other and that some aspects actually cancel out other aspects. For example, some would say that because you are a homosexual that your racial identity or gender identity is lesser as a result. Some would say that because of your racial identity you’re treated differently by others within your sexual orientation community, or treated differently as a certain gender than others of a different racial identity. Looking at these different concepts and the different combinations of these concepts and how they relate to each other is very fascinating, but it is also very reflective of the diversity within people from different sexuality, racial, and gender backgrounds.

What are your thoughts on the effect of location-based apps on the gay male community, and the wider non-heterosexual community in general, in terms of the propagation of femmephobia/anti-gay language/racist language from within the community?

It is interesting to see just how many of these apps and websites have been created within the last few years. We now have Grindr, Jackd, Adam4Adam Radar and various others, which we didn’t have in the past.

In terms of the effect of these location-based apps on the gay community, it has definitely changed the way in which we are interacting with each other within the gay community. In the past when we didn’t have these websites, or the internet, the primary way in which gay men would find each other would be through gay clubs, and ads in gay publications. The clubs provided less anonymity for gay men. If you were within the gay club it was immediately assumed that you were gay. The ads provided a little more anonymity, and now with these websites you have even more anonymity. Therefore, people are able to participate within the gay community and interact with gay men in order to seek out relationships and sexual partners without being within a public space that would publicly declare your sexual orientation or sexual practices. As a result, I argue that this has created some divisions within the gay community in which you have a difference between those who are “publicly” gay and those who are “privately gay.”

Another way in which these websites and apps have impacted the gay male community is that it has increased the Internet as being the primary way in which gay men enter the gay community and learn about gay conceptions and perceptions. Instead of the club being the place in which you see other gay people, many people are turning to these websites as the site in which they explore their sexuality and their initial perceptions and conceptions of the gay community and their own sense of their sexual orientation. As a result, the messages that are within the ads and profiles on these websites are not only discussing personal preferences they are also suggesting certain behaviours and attributes that are considered to be desirable and acceptable by the gay community. When a newly gay person enter into these websites and do not see themselves reflected within theses profiles and ads as desirable or acceptable it can impact how they view their own sexual orientation and their own ability to be able to establish gay friendships and romantic relationships.

These websites have also increased the level of effemiphobia, body image issues, and racist language within the community. Numerous times on profiles within these websites you will see the phrase “No fats, no femmes.” A huge preponderance of this phrase sends a message that in order to be acceptable in the eyes of most gay men you must be a certain body type or a certain masculinity presentation. Also the statement of certain racial preferences and negative statements regarding certain races also send negative messages about the acceptability of certain racial minorities within the gay community. 

Do you believe these apps have increased anti-femme thinking and language in the gay male population, or merely provide a more noticeable platform for something that has always existed?

I do think that these apps have increased the acceptability of effemiphobia and increased the use of negative thoughts towards effeminacy within the gay community. I also think that these apps have helped to highlight certain preferences and language that has been used within the gay community for a long time. Previous research has cited that within print gay advertisements there was a large preference towards masculinity and negative views towards effeminacy. Negativity toward effeminacy within men has been an issue since the beginning of interactions between people in society. Think back to when you were a child, there was an expectation that boys are supposed to play with G.I. Joe and girls are supposed to play with Barbie. However, when a boy plays with Barbie or a girl plays with G.I. Joe all of a sudden there seems to be a problem and the behaviour by these children needs to be corrected. The reason is because these children have transgressed against “accepted” forms of behaviour aligned with gender. Instead of accepting that gender is a spectrum and that a person can still be “male” while engaging in behaviour and activities that are associated with “females” it does not negate their “maleness.” However, the problem is that people have associated these transgressions with their own conceptions of masculinity and femininity. For example, if a boy plays with Barbie, the father of that boy feels that his own masculinity is threatened because his son is transgressing against gender and he is associated with that. In a similar way, we see “masculine” presenting gay men distancing themselves away from “feminine” presenting gay men out of fear of association.

What do you think is the main reason(s) for gay men to demand mandatory masculinity/heterosexualisation in themselves and others online?

As I stated in the previous question, we have been conditioned to believe and behave a certain way when it comes to being a boy or a man. If you transgress that the expectation is that you are supposed to correct yourself, or separate yourself from those who transgress. As children, you may have witnessed or been subjected to teasing by other boys because you liked to jump rope instead of playing football. You may have been shunned because you weren’t as “macho” as other boys. That demand of masculinity has continued even to adulthood where you now demand a certain level of masculinity among your friends and your romantic partners because you do not want to be associated with femininity or perceived to be less masculine.

Another reason you see this demand for masculinity is because a person does not want to be associated with homosexuality or to announce their sexuality. To be “gay” has often been associated with “effeminate.” Therefore if someone does not want to announce their sexuality to the world and others within their life, they will separate themselves from others who act “effeminate” or outwardly “gay” because their association with that person would cause others to think that they are “gay” This is one of the reasons why you see the “down-low” behaviour or a request for a “straight-acting” man because when the world sees these two individuals the default understanding of their relationship is not based on a sexual relationship or immediately announces the sexual orientation of the two men.

What do you think of the phrase “it’s just a preference” when it comes to gender-based/race-based demands made online?”

We all have preferences for what we want on a lot of things. Some people don’t like chocolate ice cream, other people prefer vanilla. The important thing is how do you present and state these preferences. The problem that I see is that within these online profiles the language that is often used suggests that these particular types of individuals are unacceptable in a general sense and that the person is not open to interactions of any kind with a person who does not meet those specific criteria. Now, it is true that we have to be mindful of what these sites are used for and if you are attracted to a particular type as sexual partners then you are stating what type you would like for that purpose. What I argue is that you can state your preferences but I would admonish all of us to be mindful of how we state that. Simply stating “no fats no femmes,” sends a harsher message then stating, “I seek a man who is muscular and is masculine.” One suggests a judgment whereas the other suggests a preference. Language has power and we need to be mindful of the language that we use. For example, during the Jim Crow era you would often see No Blacks, No Jews, etc. In a similar way simply saying No Fats, No Femmes, sends a similar message of acceptability instead of a preference.

What do you think are the major hurdles for improving the consciousness of gender, sexuality, and race in everyday gay males?

I think that the major hurdle in improving the consciousness of any community is a lack of openness to raising your consciousness. It’s easy for people to feel that a particular issue or concern is not their problem and therefore they are easy to dismiss it or raise their consciousness towards it, but our society and how we interact with each other is a concern for all of us. We should all be open to expanding our own understanding of people who are different from us.

Do you have any thoughts about possible ways to engage femmephobic/racist gay men and achieve a positive improvement in their use of language online?

I always feel that when you know better, you do better. I would urge us who have interactions with these individuals who engage in this type of language to try to educate them on why their statements are problematic and the potential impact their language can have. Sometimes, its simply because these individuals did not know or never thought about it. So, I would encourage us to be more proactive in having these conversations within our own communities and try to turn the tide.

A lot of people say gay marriage is not about getting married, but about equality instead. Others criticise the movement, saying that it’s a rush to assimilate into heterosexual culture, and will only serve to diminish what is unique about ourselves. Others think it will normalise gay people who get married, and ‘other’ those who choose not to. Others think it will create a sense of pressure on gay couples to get married, simply because the option will have become available. What are your thoughts about marriage in general, and about gay marriage specifically?

I was very happy to see the Supreme Court end the Defense Against Marriage Act, and for Prop. 8 to be overturned. I think that the important thing is for people to have the option to get married. No one forces anyone to get married. I feel that everyone should have the option to get married and that all marriages should have the same rights and privileges. I do not think that gay marriage forces us to assimilate to heterosexual marriage. I think it is important for us to understand that everyone’s relationship is their own unique relationship. The ways in which the two partners interact with each other is between those two partners. The rules of relationships are the rules established within that relationship. So I am happy that now all marriages are going to receive equal treatment, but my hope is that we create our own templates for our own individual relationships and not feel that we have to fit a specific mould or behave a specific way.